Thanks to a tip from Justfoundout, I googled left intraparietal sulcus to learn more about it and then again in Spanish. I found an article on Maths and Brain which is very interesting as it points out which region of the brain activates in different maths works (adding, multiplying, etc).
The link is: http://www.hospit...s/3465.pdf
Encontre un articulo muy interesante sobre Matematicas y Cerebro. Lo interesante (aunque un poco dificil) es la explicacion sobre las regiones del cerebro que se activan al realizar diferentes operaciones matematicas como restas y multiplicaciones. El link es: http://www.hospit...s/3465.pdf
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6135 Joined: 2008-05-25
11/17/08
Dear Internationalmama,
We are totally on the same 'wavelength'. Here's my situation, and the reason why this information that you've 'revived' is so important. Dyscalculia (or Math Learning Disability) is not a number on a sub-set of test scores. Dyscalculia is a part of the brain that doesn't work correctly, -- or at ALL, for that matter. So the people who've made the tests, in their (how do we say 'afan' in English? You've got me thinking in Spanish now with that above posting.) attempt/desire/rush/eagerness/quest (i.e., 'afan', in Spanish) to 'weed out' the people who just haven't bothered to try to learn math from those with a "disability", have used testing methods that basically say, "You show me what you can do, and I'll tell you whether you have a Math Learning Disability or not." Hence, many dyscalculics who are truly dyscalculics DO get the disability accommodations and waivers that they need and deserve. However, many other dyscalculics have somehow 'learned too much math and coping strategies' to be able to "qualify" for the 'positive' math LD diagnosis. If the 'positive' math LD diagnosis were based on identifying a non-functional (or even under-functional) part of the brain, where the math processes take place (or 'parts' of the brain, as you've mentioned), then those already diagnosed as having a math learning disability would keep that 'LD' recognition, but additionally, those who have gone 'above and beyond' in somehow finding a way to do something almost impossible (learning math using only unimaginably primitive 'brain tools') would also be acknowledged as Dyscalculic. This would be a breakthrough for fairness and justice.
Here's what a psychologist from The UT Southwestern Medical School wrote about me, in a report on me. (This is not the psychologist who tested me.) The psychologist says, "Regarding the use of computer tests that Ms. *(Justfoundout) mentions, it is true that the gold standard tests for learning disorders do not measure brain processing directly. The computer tests that are being developed to measure brain processing directly have yet to be empirically validated and therefore cannot be used for ADA and DARS purposes."
Internationalmama, you're such an encouragement and inspiration. Thanks for taking note of the message I've been trying to put across for a long time here on the forum. I'm re-pasting the link from your posting. (If you'll highlight the link in your posting, and then click the square blue button that says 'url', right below the here, that will allow others to just 'click' on the link.) Great article, great pictures. http://www.hospit...s/3465.pdf
The following link and partial quote is my English-language contribution to the forum, to 'bring up to speed' those who couldn't read Internationalmama's previous posting in Spanish. Please read this, everybody, because it's something that would revolutionize our 'getting testing for an LD' dilema.
HERE IT IS FOLKS. From ScienceDaily (Sep. 26, 2008) -
"... Using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) to study the brains of children with math difficulties, Ansari says that it becomes clear that children with developmental dyscalculia show atypical activation patterns in a part of the brain called the parietal cortex.
This research holds tremendous promise for people who, in the past, had simply accepted that they are 'not good at math.' Understanding the causes and brain correlates of dyscalculia may help to design remediation tools to improve the lives of children and adults with the syndrome.
A report of this research is forthcoming in the Journal of Experimental Child Psychology.
"We have some cultural biases in North America around math skills," says Ansari. "We think that people who are good at math must be exceptionally intelligent, and even more dismaying and damaging, we have an attitude that being bad at math is socially acceptable. People who would never dream of telling others they are unable to read, will proclaim publicly they flunked math.""
Please let the rest of us know whenever you find an update on the use of MRI's in determining dyscalculia. Thanks. - justfoundout
Edited by justfoundout on November 17 2008 05:08 PM
Location: United States Posts: 1860 Joined: 2008-11-14
Thank you justfoundout for translating part of the article into English. I am so often frustrated with people who don't believe that there is such a thing as a math learning disorder - I have had well-meaning friends tell me, "It can't be that bad, a lot of people aren't good at math." As if being dyscalculic was just "not being good at math." If I didn't have such a problem grasping numbers, I would be VERY good at math - I scored extremely well on fluid thinking and logic, I think like a "math" person, I just can't apply it to numbers. I can understand what equation to use and how to find slope and blah blah blah, but when it comes down to the actual problem solving, I'll mix up multiplication and addition signs, or write a 6 instead of a 9, or write 54 instead of 45. It's so much more than being "bad at math" and when we accept that culturally, maybe we'll ALL get the respect and help we need to get around in this number-oriented society.
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6135 Joined: 2008-05-25
11/17/08
Dear CheshireKat,
Sorry, I didn't mean to mislead. I couldn't find Internationmama's article in English, so I just found a different one that was along the same lines. I do Spanish translation, but it's time consuming and I feel a great responsibility to be accurate, so I took the easy way out this time.
Today, our young member AnimalHugger posted another similar link on a different Thread. Our scientific knowledge is growing by leaps and bounds. I'll re-paste here the link that AnimalHugger found for us, along with a partial quote:
http://www.time.c...46,00.html
"... Until then, the most significant outcome might be to remind teachers and parents — even those math-minded scientists — that dyscalculia is a neurological condition, quite separate from not paying attention in class or just being a bit slow."
I have a new (not so great) job. It's a phone job with a lot of cubicles. A very nice young man who I work near had even gone through training in my same class, but I couldn't remember his name. He wouldn't tell it to me again when I asked him, and was 'teasing' me. After a while, I got tired of it and explained to him that I have a 'disability' and that the teasing is only 'cute' when a person doesn't have a disability. He told me his name, and the rest seemed to take a while to 'sink in', but he even apologized later for teasing me. I told him, 'Oh no, that's fine.'
I'm just telling you this here on the forum because I think that this is really all we are trying to get from other people,... just for them not to make our lives harder than they already are. - justfoundout
Edited by justfoundout on November 17 2008 09:00 PM
"Hence, many dyscalculics who are truly dyscalculics DO get the disability accommodations and waivers that they need and deserve. However, many other dyscalculics have somehow 'learned too much math and coping strategies' to be able to "qualify" for the 'positive' math LD diagnosis."
This is kind of the situation I am in, I touched on it in my thread over whether or not dyscalculics are allowed to get A's. I DID managed to get diagnosed, to my surprise, but because I had an A in my math class (having failed it twice already, and only succeeding now because I am skipping meals to study), my professor is being a pain in the ass and is giving me problems about getting my accommodations because he thinks if I can do that well then I don't need them. He fails to recognize that it is not feasible for me to spend 30 hours a week on my math alone, and that I am in fact taking MORE math classes after his that I MAY NOT BE SO LUCKY in. I don't see why I should have to be a C student in order for him to believe that I have a disability. I am compensating for my disability by reteaching myself every lesson every week and by running myself into the ground studying, on what planet is that NORMAL?
I am taking a spanish class and commonly use "google translator" for long articles that I just cant decipher enough of to understand. You can always copy and paste the article in there, however, be aware it wont come out exact, but should give you enough indication of the articles meaning.
Twisted: I feel your pain, my school doesnt do squat for dyscalcs but by lord if you were dyslexic or ADD/ADHD, or any other LD you are golden. I will be taking a Calculus with Business Applications next semester and it is up to the teacher to decide if they will let me use note cards and a graphing calculator for the class, my particular accessibility office wont mandate anything but longer testing times and if needed a note taker for the class. Which by the way is just another student in the class getting paid fifty bucks for the semester to take them. So what happens if that person misses a class, what if they suck at note taking, how am I supposed to understand someone elses notes when I dont even understand the teacher or my notes? So I can understand your frustration and how the systems wants to punish us more than help us...truly sad.
Edited by tammyk1 on November 18 2008 08:47 PM
Location: United States Posts: 1860 Joined: 2008-11-14
TwistedxKiss - I know exactly what you mean about having "learned too much math." All throughout high school I was placed in Honors math classes because of my academic performance overall (I was placed in AP and dual-enrollment classes for everything else), despite having such an issue with understanding numbers. With a LOT of extra help after school from a lot of very kind math teachers, as well as some less academically honest methods of grade bolstering (i.e. homework copying) I was usually able to scrape B's and C's in my Honors math classes - which was considered okay. It doesn't change the fact that I still have to pause and think about whether a number is a 6 or a 9, a 7 or an L, a 3 or an E - it just means that students like us are so intelligent that we are able to compensate, and then the system faults us for it.
justfoundout - Oooh I see what you're saying. Either way, it was a great excerpt. By the way, I understand your frustrations at work. I work as a cashier in retail... NOT the kind of job someone with a hard time reading numbers needs to have! Especially because our members cards double as punch cards, so since they are disposable, we have to manually enter their membership number (an 8-digit alphanumeric code) rather than being able to simply scan it into the computer. The work environment is very competitive, with our weekly performance ranked and displayed in the employee lounge for everyone to see (supposedly to make us work harder), so if I am slower than the other cashiers because it takes me longer to enter the numbers in the correct order, everyone knows. I finally confided in one of my co-workers, and now if she sees me getting flustered when I repeatedly enter the wrong sequence of digits, she will usually come to my rescue and read them aloud to me. I am currently trying to find a new job - one that doesn't require me to know the difference between 54528365 and 54348356, seventy-five times per shift!
"The hardest arithmetic to master is that which enables us to count our blessings." - Eric Hoffer
CheshireKat wrote:
TwistedxKiss - I know exactly what you mean about having "learned too much math." All throughout high school I was placed in Honors math classes because of my academic performance overall (I was placed in AP and dual-enrollment classes for everything else), despite having such an issue with understanding numbers. With a LOT of extra help after school from a lot of very kind math teachers, as well as some less academically honest methods of grade bolstering (i.e. homework copying) I was usually able to scrape B's and C's in my Honors math classes - which was considered okay. It doesn't change the fact that I still have to pause and think about whether a number is a 6 or a 9, a 7 or an L, a 3 or an E - it just means that students like us are so intelligent that we are able to compensate, and then the system faults us for it.
justfoundout - Oooh I see what you're saying. Either way, it was a great excerpt. By the way, I understand your frustrations at work. I work as a cashier in retail... NOT the kind of job someone with a hard time reading numbers needs to have! Especially because our members cards double as punch cards, so since they are disposable, we have to manually enter their membership number (an 8-digit alphanumeric code) rather than being able to simply scan it into the computer. The work environment is very competitive, with our weekly performance ranked and displayed in the employee lounge for everyone to see (supposedly to make us work harder), so if I am slower than the other cashiers because it takes me longer to enter the numbers in the correct order, everyone knows. I finally confided in one of my co-workers, and now if she sees me getting flustered when I repeatedly enter the wrong sequence of digits, she will usually come to my rescue and read them aloud to me. I am currently trying to find a new job - one that doesn't require me to know the difference between 54528365 and 54348356, seventy-five times per shift!
I feel like crying just hearing about your job!
I worked as a cashier once and got pretty decent at it eventually, though my coworkers complained on a daily basis that I took too long to close out the register, but what would get me is when someone would give me money, I'd enter it into the register, and then they are like OH WAIT and give me more money so they can get a certain amount of change back. I would always just tell them that the register wouldn't let me do that because I couldn't calculate change due back, I could only count out what the register told me to give them.
And then at the end of the day I had to count out how much we had in each individual type of coin or bill, and add it all together, and find 12 different numbers on the slip, and enter everything into the computer. I wish I had known I was dyscalculic then!
By the way, I understand your frustrations at work. I work as a cashier in retail... NOT the kind of job someone with a hard time reading numbers needs to have! Especially because our members cards double as punch cards, so since they are disposable, we have to manually enter their membership number (an 8-digit alphanumeric code) rather than being able to simply scan it into the computer. The work environment is very competitive, with our weekly performance ranked and displayed in the employee lounge for everyone to see (supposedly to make us work harder), so if I am slower than the other cashiers because it takes me longer to enter the numbers in the correct order, everyone knows. I finally confided in one of my co-workers, and now if she sees me getting flustered when I repeatedly enter the wrong sequence of digits, she will usually come to my rescue and read them aloud to me. I am currently trying to find a new job - one that doesn't require me to know the difference between 54528365 and 54348356, seventy-five times per shift!