If anyone knows of where I can find information of the case that they are refering to in the article (about the 10 Boston students) I would appreciate it.
Would anyone care to discuss this? I was horrified. This woman is clearly sending out the wrong message.
I hated the way she acted like people who tried to get accommodations are somehow trying to beat the system. Like we are somehow lazy, and making it all up. Unfortunately, there are so many people out there that believe that about us. It seems that every learning disorder is supported (not that I have any problem with you guys, I just envy you terribly ), but we have so much trouble even trying to convince people that our struggles with math are more than the "average" person's struggles. I wish I knew why that was. It frustrates me to no end.
I don't know why she would single us out in this article. Maybe some dyscalculic teenager working the cash register gave her the wrong change one day and she has some kind of chip on her shoulder. This woman seems the type that would complain about a building made accessible for people in wheelchairs. Like maybe they are trying to beat the system and pretend they are in a wheelchair, kinda like obviously people with dyscalculia are just pretending. *eyeroll*
I'm going to go ahead and stop now. I'm afraid I've gotten out of hand already, but this article really is digging at me.
I wish I had this woman's email. I would lay some hard truths on her.
Edited by classclownfish on November 28 2008 04:14 AM
I contemplated a letter to the editor. I am very offended. Its this kind of discrimination that only hinders our cause, unfortunately.
Edited by Rae on November 28 2008 04:32 AM
Location: United States Posts: 1860 Joined: 2008-11-14
To be honest, as negative as the article is, if you look at it OBJECTIVELY without having any sort of emotions about the topic, there is some truth there. Ever since I was introduced to the "world of the learning disabled" I have met a lot of really intelligent, capable people who have a processing disorder and are asking for some help (calculators, extra time, extra tutors)... and a lot of people who probably have a mild to moderate problem, and are asking for a free pass.
I hear some people get up in arms about how, "they can't expect me to be able to do math just with extra time, tutoring, and calculator use." But what about dyslexics? Don't you expect a dyslexic to be able to read, even though they have a learning disorder? What if a dyslexic said, "Well, I think I should be exempt from my writing requirements because I have dyslexia." Or better yet, what if you were a waiter in a restaurant and a dyslexic said to you, "I'm dyslexic, I can't read my menu, I need you to read it aloud to me."
A dyslexic CAN read, they just have to work harder at it... and a dyscalculic CAN do math (except in extreme cases, acalculia, which almost always come from considerable brain damage) they just have to be willing to put in the extraordinary effort to comprehend, and understand that they still won't be at everyone else's level despite their hard work. "Can't" is one of the most abused words in the English lexicon, and I hate hearing people use it to describe their abilities (or disabilities).
Maybe in today's fluffy world of feel-goodness and rainbows, people don't want to hear a hard truth... sometimes you CAN'T be anything you want to be. At least, you can't be anything you want to be and have it on YOUR terms. If you want to be a doctor, great! Take Calc 1 and 2. If you want to get a degree in Business, awesome! You take stats, economics, and some other basic math surveys. You want to be a quantum physicist? You get my point.
I know this is going to upset some people on the forum, but it's the truth. I have "met" a lot of great people on this site who are struggling with every-day tasks because of dyscalculia; hell, I'm one of them. Reading a face clock, distinguishing left from right, remembering directions given to me... all of those things are very difficult for me to do. And I get lost easily. My visual-spatial skills are horrendous. I have terrible working memory. I have terrible number and pattern recognition. Math is HARD for me - it's like a foreign language. I get it. I am dyscalculic. I understand.
But I also was able to get B's and C's in all of my math classes in high school because I busted my ass and earned them. I earned my C harder than most kids earned their A's. And it wasn't without a lot of extra help outside of the classroom. But I did it, I wasn't "exempt" from high school math because it was hard for me. Granted, I didn't know I had dyscalculia back then - it wasn't until this year, in college, that I found out. But even if I had known, it wouldn't have changed anything, except that I would have been placed into a special elective-period class with other learning disabled kids to get extra help. And you know what's funny? I VOLUNTEERED with those kids. I tutored them in reading, in science, in history. If you had told me I was one of them, I would have laughed until it hurt.
And I am still not "one of them" because there is something different when it comes to me and them - they have a learning disability and they say, "Oh well okay, I don't have to TRY anymore and bust it to get to the top, because I have a disability and I have to be catered to." And that's simply not the case. I failed out of my Pre-Calculus Algebra class because of dyscalculia. I understand how HARD it can be to try and try and just fail anyway. But that's not an excuse to quit, to give up.
Obviously there are some degree programs in which it is not PERTINENT for a person to take math - any of the vast Liberal Arts or Fine Arts degrees come to mind readily. An English major doesn't need math. An Art History major doesn't need math. But a Chemistry major needs math. A Business major needs math. It depends on your degree, and for people in degree programs that don't require more than gen ed maths, they SHOULD be allowed to take substitution courses for their math credits. But there are a lot of people out there whose degrees - less because of the nature of the job and more because of the nature of the degree program - require higher maths. And it is a little ridiculous for someone majoring in Business or Economics to ask to be exempt from math classes.
I suppose my entire point with this rambling post was this: I hear so many people with LDs talk about how they are NORMAL people, how they want people to understand and treat them like they would any NORMAL person, not like they're stupid. But then some of the same people turn around and say that they want the educational system to make not just accommodations (which it will readily do), but to completely relieve them of ever having to touch numbers. You can't have it both ways in life - to be seen like everyone else, but to be treated differently than everyone else.
Now, don't hate me because of what I said, but I stand by it 100%. I think the vast majority of people here aren't asking for hand-outs; they're asking for help recognizing and dealing with their learning disability. But there are some people out there who are looking for a free pass, for an excuse, and nothing more. They just want to say, "I have dyscalculia, so I CAN'T." When in reality, they should be saying, "I have dyscalculia, so I won't."
"The hardest arithmetic to master is that which enables us to count our blessings." - Eric Hoffer
Location: Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 620 Joined: 2007-10-25
This is not a case of ignorance, she wants the controversie. That shows people are reading her poorly written, fact-absent article. I am completely ignoring it, I would rather see her be unnoticed.
However...most of what she said was rather hateful and stupid, she claimed people asking for the needed help is the "LD scam in higher education". I dated a blind girl when se was attending Clark in Worcester, naturally she got some different accomadations...did she have an advantage now? Was she better off than a sited person? No. She now could learn. She still had to do the same as anyone else. She still could not see and never will. She still had to face the same work as everyone else...plus, of course, the same disability as always.
I never asked for help in college (although I should have asked for money, that was my downfall) I never asked to be considered normal, I take pride in not being normal. Normal people suck. Most are mean, hurtful, selfish creatures.
She also called LDs "amorphous conditions" when she found this term in her word of the day calender she thought this would be a good way to sound smart and confuse "normal people." If she was truley Dyscalculic (she's not, she said she was not diagnosed and was merely "bad at math" she would know that there IS a definition for all LDs and defined syptoms. Sorry, you don't have LDs...your just dumb.
She also down played Dysgraphia as "poor handwritting". I have nothing to say about this, it's just dumbness.
She also used the term "students like me". No, stupid, they are not students like you. Dyscalclics are smart people who have issues with numbers. Something they will always have. While we can learn to compensate, we can never learn away the LD any more than a blind girl can work harder to see. She found ways to make it through college, but she will not learn to see. I do OK in life, it's a massive struggle and it cost me a lot, but I might make it. What I won't do is poop on others who are struggling to get past THEIR issues no matter what they are. I will critize... no, feel bad for, people who whine and do nothing. If the girl from Clark sat in her mom's house complaining all day about not being able to do anything she would be fullfilling her predictions and would never accomplish anything...but I am happy to say she did.
So to Miss Chavez... 6,21,3,11 you!
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
Location: Southeastern U.S. Posts: 322 Joined: 2008-11-10
I've written two replies and deleted both. I'm horrified by what the author said. I think some "bad seeds" abuse the system and cause others who need it further difficulties and rejections.
I'm angry about the dysgraphia portion, because my daughter has it. I see her struggles and humiliation.
The author needs to walk a mile in your shoes! Let her judge then.
I never asked to be considered normal, I take pride in not being normal. Normal people suck. Most are mean, hurtful, selfish creatures.
I had to smile a little, even though you didn't mean it in jest. I'm not quite "normal", but that made me want to apologize for not having a learning disorder! I do know what you're saying reverend.
I would definitely agree that some people cheat the system. My only objection is that she overstresses it to sound like it's the majority, and I don't believe that for a second. Too many of the majority of LD students are still having trouble even getting a straight answer over whether or not they even have an LD or are eligible for accommodations to be busy with figuring out how they can manipulate the system to their advantage.
I purposefully chose political science over biology because I was looking for the lesser math requirement so I would need less accommodation. I did not ask for my algebra to be waived, and I am going to take the statistics class for my quantitative reasoning requirement. I only get hung up on trig, and I'm not sure what the right thing to do is. I don't know if I can pass that class. I think there is more than reasonable evidence to suggest I can't. And I'm not necessarily saying I can't learn trig, I am saying I can't keep up with the class and learn it at the pace I would need to in order to get the grade I would need. For that reason, if I am able to get it waived, I will take it at a community college someday when a bad grade won't destroy me. Given that I want to go to law school and for all intents and purposes can consider myself an eligible applicant to top level law schools, I don't want to see my GPA take damage from an irrelevant class. It will eliminate me from candidacy whether it is relevant to my degree or not, they are that damn picky. And being that I went out of my way to keep math from being relevant to my career choices, I don't want it to limit me so much even in irrelevancy. Even now, it has changed me from a 3.7 student to a 3.0 student. In terms of transferring to a university, regardless of my degree program, that bumps me from 1st or 2nd tier university to 3rd or 4th. That makes a HUGE difference in my future, even though I DON'T NEED TRIG FOR MY CAREER. I don't see why I should have to accept the bare minimum for myself because of one subject that I purposefully avoided when choosing my path so that this wouldn't happen.
Location: That would require me to know where I was Posts: 429 Joined: 2008-06-08
Limited internet access right now or I would post linkks. The author is an idelogically driven columnist. For more info on this case google Somnolent Samantha. The pres of BU during that time thinks lds are overdiagnosed an made up a fictious student to help make his point. Also Google Elizabeth Guckenberger and Boston University. I will try to write more when I get better computer access
Thanks for all your replies. I'm glad to hear what you think, and I was surprised by some of your responses. Bonnie, thank you for the link, I shall read through that in a moment.
Kat, your post certainly made me think (In a good way!). I was not offended by what you said, but part of me wanted to object. I think you are right in the sense that people do need to work hard and that people shouldn't just want an "Easy" pass in math. I also think you are right in saying that not everyone can be what they want to be.
However, I feel the need to counter-act this (in a healthy objective sense). Whilst you are right, EVERYONE needs to "Bust their ass" the whole point of Dyscalculia (and I could be horribly wrong) is that it is labelled a medical disability. Some part of the brain is not connecting. How do you make it?? I want nothing more that to learn the math. Why? Because I appreciate its value to my everyday living. But "Wanting" to learn it isn't going to reconnect my brain. I sat in the math lab for 6 hours, trying to "Get it" and "Busting my ass". It wasn't coming to me.
What I think is that everyone here needs to be a "Case by Case" evaluation - especially when it comes to universities. There are some who can try and be successful with accomodations, and there are others who could do math till they are blue in the face, it won't change anything.
Another good point Kat raised was how pertinent the math course is to your degree. Again, everyones case is different. The only math I need to do is a prerequisite. Not even on my course. I did notice that the degree's mentioned that specifically request math as part of the course are (and forgive me) "useful" degree's such as Business. Those are degree's where you are more likely to get a job. Trust me, I took an associates degree in perfoming arts to avoid math, and I can't get a damn job, hence why I am doing nursing. Liberal Arts doesn't cut it in the real world, unless you want to be a teacher and oh...you need math! Lets not forget the economy right now.
I have 3 children to feed, and what I want is more options other than "Chose another course". Why? Because I demonstrate with 4.0 GPA that I am clearly a competent student in every other subject. A lack of understanding in one lousy class does not make me a completely unworthy person for a degree. Especially when the only reason I am failing math is because of a learning disability. If I didn't have the learning disability, I betcha I'd do the math just as good - if not better than anyone else.There's no indication that I would be a poor nurse simply over the fact that I struggle with alegebric equasions.
Lets face it, the accomodations are hardly accomodating. They aren't accomodating anything by producing an extra hour - the extra time might be useful, but it won't help me learn the math anymore than a personal tutor? Why? Again, I refer to the disability. Its not an excuse, and I'm sick of anyone who says it is. Its a genuine struggle because of a genuine medical learning disability. There's absolutely no "Easy Ride" in any of this. I haven't heard one person on this forum who doesn't want to learn the math or make the effort like anyone else. Why not suggest an alternative math course? Or more visual aids e.t.c?
Here's a shocking thought - how about they actually waive the math and stick me on the course. I'm sure most of you are gasping with disagreement, but hear me out. IF I am a completely incompetant bumbling fool who cannot complete the first semester, then thats my own damn fault for thinking I can attempt a nursing major without the math - but a 4.0 everywhere else demonstrates to me otherwise.
Twisted, glad you wrote to the editor. I'm interested to see what the response is.
And finally, I really don't think this reporter even bothered to research her subject content. Ironic who she's calling lazy.
Edited by Rae on November 29 2008 12:23 AM
Location: Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 620 Joined: 2007-10-25
I don't want to learn math!
Actually, that brings up a good point...my problem isn't math per se, it's the numbers. I can use a calculator (Im talking about in the "real world" not school) the problem really rears it's ugly, numerical head when I try to read numbers, transcribe them or use them in any way. Maybe I am stating the obvious here.
Also is it possible that LDs ARE being overdiagnosed? I know there seems to be a trend for parents to read what the internet has to offer as an explaination for their childs issues. (googlenosis ?) "Oh my dear god, Timmy is behaving oddly, HE'S AUTISTIC!!" No dummy, he's an 8 year old boy, they're normally weird. I was....am.
PS I didn't correct any of the many spelling mistakes in my last post, that's what happens when I try to think and write after little sleep. My brain sucks.
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
Location: Southeastern U.S. Posts: 322 Joined: 2008-11-10
Also is it possible that LDs ARE being overdiagnosed? I know there seems to be a trend for parents to read what the internet has to offer as an explaination for their childs issues. (googlenosis ?)
This strikes a chord with me and is possibly one of my biggest fears. I wonder if I'm doing that with my daughter now. There's a big possibility that she won't be diagnosed with dyscalculia. I can just imagine the response from her math teacher to the psychologist during her testing, "The mom has convinced herself and her child that she has a math disorder." I'd guess if I had unlimited money, that I could continue to get her tested until I received the diagnosis that we were looking for. So yes, it's a possibility that learning disorders can be misdiagnosed or over diagnosed. But isn't the risk of over diagnosing better than underdiagnosing?
I also know many parents who think their child can do no wrong and blame everything on the school or the child's ADD, or whatever is handy.
I guess that's the flip side of the parents that are mentioned on here so frequently, the one's who don't care enough to get help for their child when it truly is needed.
Again, I think it is a balancing act for schools. But, they should err on the side of helping rather than putting up roadblocks. Also, Rae and others are so correct when saying that it is the whole student's "picture" that should be looked at, not just a rigid structure of one size fits all.
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6102 Joined: 2008-05-25
11/28/08
What a great bunch of people I get to talk to every day.
When I read the first post, by Rae, describing what someone had written about 'us', I didn't have enough adrenalin in me to even read the posting. Those things tend to upset me,... I mean things that aren't fair upset me,... so I didn't read it, and I still haven't. I just read all of your responses and let you be my 'filters', and I get the 'drift'. Yes, often people will write outrageous things for their own 'ratings'. I would have probably done what TwistedxKiss did and write the editor if I'd had more energy,... and I say this without having read the article.
On the subject of getting courses 'waived',... I guess I can't play the "I'm older than all of you" card here, since I haven't overtly told my age. It goes like this. I used to be a little bit smarter and a little bit sharper than I am now, and hence, I could find more ways to 'compensate' than I can now. 'Compensating' was a little more fun than it is now. So, what I'm saying here is that by being older, I know something about both worlds, the world of young people who are so full of life that "nothing can stop them", and also the world of people who would do more, but have run out of internal and financial resources, who can no longer "do the impossible", and who can only "dream the imposible dream" once in a while, outside, in the sunshine, with a breeze, and a nice temperature.
My feelings are closest aligned, in this Thread, with Rae, especially where she said:
Some part of the brain is not connecting. How do you make it?? I want nothing more that to learn the math. Why? Because I appreciate its value to my everyday living. But "Wanting" to learn it isn't going to reconnect my brain.
I need a degree to make a living. I'm having to work at jobs that have very little mental stimulation, with rules that force me to treat 'customers' in ways that I wouldn't want to be treated. (I'll tell you more about this later.) I'm not making enough money to pay for what's necessary. I need that degree for 'now', not for a far-away 'future'. The math classes go too fast for me to keep up, and I need peace, and quiet, and TIME to figure out math. And I just don't have these now, because I come home tired these days, and I have to rest.
CheshireKat, I'm so glad that you are enthused about life and learning. I want you to be one of the few of us who can actually make it through that 'glass ceiling' that few dyscalculics can break through. And I know that you'll be helping the rest of us someday, either by your writings, your tutoring, or even in your role as a professional after you earn your degree. But, (you knew this was coming, didn't you?), your IQ is considerably higher than mine. And it's considerably higher that many people on this forum. In fact, there must be some parts of your brain that are even 'prodigious' for you to have a 136 in spite of your other disabilities being averaged in. (I still don't know exactly how this 'average' is arrived at.) Kat, not everybody can stare at something long enough and have it finally make sense. In some of my math tests, I stared at the problems and made little marks on the paper, until finally, I realized that I was just playing with my pencil and eraser, and that I might as well turn in the paper and leave. You have an amazing capacity to circumvent the part of your brain that doesn't work normally due to your massive IQ. We don't all have this. And, although financial situations can change (unlike dyscalculia), right now isn't a good time for me to spend endless hours figuring out how do something (like algebra) that won't pay the house taxes by January 1st. If I can replace College Algebra with three Science classes, I'll jump on it. Paralegals don't need algebra. And, like Rae, to make money, I'd have done Business -- if I could do Business, but I can't, so I entered the Paralegal program. - jus'
Edited by justfoundout on November 29 2008 02:41 AM
Location: United States Posts: 1860 Joined: 2008-11-14
justfoundout wrote:
Kat, not everybody can stare at something long enough and have it finally make sense. In some of my math tests, I stared at the problems and made little marks on the paper, until finally, I realized that I was just playing with my pencil and eraser, and that I might as well turn in the paper and leave.
Jus, I get what you're saying, and I do understand that I can't compare what my dyscalculia is to me, to what other people's dyscalculia is to them. I think I just get really frustrated when I see people fly the white flag and give up on ever being able to learn and overcome. I'm not saying that every person can pass College Algebra - hell, I have yet to pass college Algebra either. But nobody, no matter how bad their dyscalculia, should say, "I can't get a degree, I can't be educated, I can't function in day to day life (balancing a checkbook, giving change, following a map, etc.) because I am disabled, and that's that."
I think a lot of my feelings on the subject come from tutoring. I once tutored a seven year old boy who had severe AD/HD. He was an incredibly quick, engaging, curious little boy who loved to tell and draw stories, but reading them was just "out of the question" according to his teacher. He was in 1st grade, and his reading level was about a 7. On the scale they used, for a 1st grader, a level 10 would be right at normal.
I knew he COULD read, and I knew he had the potential to be a very good reader - he just needed someone to teach him the "right way" to read, for his style of learning. So we tried different strategies. We read books upside down (shockingly, it helped, a lot - the task of interpreting the words upside down forced him to focus). We drew lots of pictures. We turned the library upside-down for books about trucks and dinosaurs and anything he wanted to read about - so long as he was reading. And it worked. It was a struggle every day and some days he wanted to cry and some days I wanted to cry... but in the end, we both put in 110% effort and it worked. After one semester of tutoring, his reading level jumped from a 7 (below average) to a 12 (above average). It wasn't because he suddenly got "smarter" or suddenly stopped being AD/HD. It was because we had found a method of learning to read that worked for him, and once he realized he wasn't stupid, he picked it up and ran with it.
My point is that children who are called "learning disabled" sometimes just aren't "taught right" in a way that is compatible to them. And I think that sometimes, people who get to fairly advanced levels of education (high school, college) without getting "taught right" in a way that suits them, feel that they just CAN'T learn because the way they were taught before never worked. If you are 18, 20, 25, 30 years old and you still suck at math, it's understandable that you will feel as if you will never be able to learn. But to me, there are so many different WAYS to learn things, that someone with a LD can't be discouraged from trying again just because the first way (or two) they tried didn't work.
Like my father always said... there's more than one way to skin a cat.
If I can replace College Algebra with three Science classes, I'll jump on it. Paralegals don't need algebra.
See, you are obviously NOT trying to cop out of your educational responsibilities. You are not the kind of learning disabled person I and others are thinking of when we think of people who want "a free pass". It's obvious that you don't - you are willing to put in a ton of extra work to get your degree, and that's very laudable. The educational system should see that and respect you for it, and try to help you - not exclude you from the program because you don't meet the "one size fits all" education they are trying to hand out.
Edited by CheshireKat on November 29 2008 03:42 AM
"The hardest arithmetic to master is that which enables us to count our blessings." - Eric Hoffer
Location: Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 620 Joined: 2007-10-25
Monkeyfeathersmom, please don't misunderstand, there is a world of difference between doing what a caring, responsible parent should do by seeking the best course of action for your child (what you are doing) and finding a quick blame for a lack of simply paying some attention to a child. Two completely different things. When I asked my mom why we were going to another doctor she told me "to see if your retarded" (we never did find out) . Some may say that this is a third option as how to deal with your child's potential LDs but I personally think it is coddling.
I think the basis for my thought was something that Dennis Leary wrote. He stated that many parents of kids who are acting like...well children, want to find some reason for this behavior. Thus autism, LDs, ADD or maybe scurvy, anything but the truth. The truth is kids are weird, loud and sometimes annoying. What we do with them during that time determines their outcome.
Don't worry, you'll be fine and Monkeyfeathers will be fine...unless of course that's her real name.
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused..."
Elvis Costello
), but we have so much trouble even trying to convince people that our struggles with math are more than the "average" person's struggles. I wish I knew why that was. It frustrates me to no end.
she would know that there IS a definition for all LDs and defined syptoms. Sorry, you don't have LDs...your just dumb.
