Hi. I'm not sure if I have posted this in the correct place, but please put me right if I haven't!
I am a driving instructor based in the UK and I have only just become aware of dyscalculia. This came about as I have a student who was struggling to remember the routine for the approach to hazards - Mirrors, Signal, Position, Speed, Look (or MSPSL). I could see that he had problems with it beyond the usual learning curve, so I asked him if he had any difficulties such as dyslexia, to which he replied he had dyscalculia. I had not heard of it, but as he said it presented difficulties with numbers, I immediately queried and discussed whether it created difficulties with sequences.
We discussed potential alternative methods of achieving the desired plan, but we didn't really come to a conclusion. Which is how I got to here - I am seeking guidance and/or techniques to help my current student and anyone with dyscalculia that I encounter in the future.
Are problems with handling (non mathematical) sequences common for the condition? I have read elsewhere on the forum that lefts/rights, directions, reversing and route planning all present challenges. Can anyone give me an insight into any methods that they have developed for driving (particularly when learning) that I could use or suggest to help my student? If this information already exists, apologies for asking again.
I have coached people with dyslexia, dyspraxia and schizophrenia to successful test passes and I've found that you usually have to think a little "outside the box" to find a strategy that works for the individual, so any help or advice I can gain through this forum will be greatly appreciated.
Sorry for the length of this post, thanks for reading.
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6136 Joined: 2008-05-25
4/12/11
Hi marchag,
Welcome here! It's great to read your question and to sense your concern for helping people to 'be all they can be'. Yes, indeed, some of us do have "problems with handling (non mathematical) sequences", and I'm one of those people. I have trouble remembering 'sequence and proceedures'. This is most difficult for me when I don't know the 'why' behind the series of actions. When it is something 'logical', gratefully, I can relate the steps 'one to the next', and do the reasonable thing.
Also, if I have time to 'study' beforehand, I can use a strategy such as forming a word or a clever sentence from the first letters of the bullet points of the instructions. At the risk of being prescribed 'sensitivity training' by the other forum members (and Admin), I would, for example, turn your MSPSL into Multiple Sclerosis Please, but remembering to reverse the last two letters.
When I used to 'memorize' a piano piece for a recital, the only way that I could do this was with 'muscle memory',... just practice it over and over until it was almost impossible for my fingers to go to any other note than the right one. In the moment of 'performing' the piece, it was way too late to try to fix anything or 'think' while I was playing.
Honestly, I'm a good driver despite my difficulty with sequence and proceedure. Your student just needs to do a 'dry run',... sitting there and 'going through the motions' as though he were 'on approach'. This can only 'sink in' when he is NOT under stress. If he will say the series of words 'out loud' a couple of times when he first starts practicing, that will probable help embed it in his mind too. He might even have a cute little check list like a pilot has before flight. He could hold a pen in his hand, say the word, perform the action, and mark it off the check list.
Someone will someday make a fortune creating specialized 'dyscalculic driver training software',... as long as a government program will pay for it! But seriously, you are not creating a monster by helping dyscalculics get their license,... just in case this thought had occurred to you.
I'm an older female. I'm good at noticing, for example, when the rear lights go on on the vehicle that's beyond the car in front of me. Once this happened, and the car that I was behind didn't slow down. Seeing that there was about to be a wreck in front of me, I hit my brakes hard, checked the rearview mirror, saw that my parallel lane was clear, and swung into it, passing the other two cars,... just as the inattentive car that I'd been following slammed into the rear of the car in front of him. That evening, I had the daughter of a friend,... a young Korean girl,... as my passenger in the front seat with me. She was wide-eyed as she asked, "How did you know that that was going to happen?" I was quite proud of myself when I told her about seeing those rear lights up ahead and noticing that the car in front of me was failing to react to them.
I took 'Driver's Education' when I was in Junior High School. My worst problem was that the men (relatives) who taught me to drive 'yelled' at me while I was learning,... not for doing something 'wrong', but for not 'hurrying up'. That did me no good at all, and it was very hard on my nervous system. You are working at a very important job. Thanks for considering our limitations and thinking about how to help us. - jus'
Edited by justfoundout on April 12 2011 10:34 PM
Location: Bribie Island Queensland Australia Posts: 407 Joined: 2005-04-03
Great reply Jus
I had an experience on our Bridge that links Bribie Island to the main land once. Only two lanes and I was in the middle of the bridge - no way off - when a Big solid painters Ladder started slipping from the back of his truck strait toward my windscreen, as I couldn't back up or move (headlines such as "Woman decapitated on Bridge" went through my mind. Just then a feak wind (I like to think a little miracle happenned) It picked up this huge wooden ladder and set it neatly right beside the bridge railings - of course I knew the truck drivers reaction - slam on the breaks right! - so I saw I had a little traffick break on the other side -I quickly got around him and indicated for the other driver behind me to quickly do the same - we both got around him just in time, he stopped (of course)!! but with two car spaces behind him no one ran into the person in front. Cool Hey!! - could have been a huge mess!
As for driving with dyscalculia I learned on a manual VW Beetle called Alexander. My dads method - took me to the middle of a sheep paddock - he then got out and said "Drive home girley" (we lived on 580 Acres) so yes I worked it out or I would have sat there a long time. Actually for me it was a good way to learn as I had to physically do it all myself and it worked - not for everyone I guess!
Cheers
kathyAlbert Einstein said: "Many of the things you can count, don't count. Many of the things you can't count, really count!."
I learned to drive a stickshift by shifting from the passenger side while Dad drove. That way I knew what shifting felt like by the time I got into the driver seat, and it was one less thing to have to think about.
Left and right: left hand forms an L with thumb and forefinger. Or wear a ring on one hand and remember which.
Sequences: make up a mnemonic sentence like Jus' said
Blessed are the PURR in heart!
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6136 Joined: 2008-05-25
4/13/11
Kathy,
I'm so glad for that 'freak wind' coming along at just the right time. We wouldn't want to do without our 'Kathy' here on the forum. - jus'
I wish you could be my driving instructor! The fact you came here looking for help for your student is great and I wish there are more instructors out there who would follow your example.
Alas I cannot drive so cannot offer any valuable information than sequences can be a problem and that perhaps repetition of the basics until they become second nature - IE mirror, signal etc.
I have decided if I do set foot in the drivers seat again I am going to learn in an automatic - after a few years of driving that and hopefully that becoming second nature I hope to perhaps upgrade my learning to a manual car. I think the gears can add a whole lot more to worry about.
Count me in!
To all: thank you for the warm reception and the further insight you have given me into dyscalculia and the difficulties that you face. There are a number of points I will take forward:
1. Sequences do indeed present a challenge, but it would appear that time to fully rehearse them whilst not under "duress" helps them "stick". I have already tried getting my student to talk me through the MSPSL routine from the passenger seat whilst I drive, thus removing the stress of actually driving whilst getting to grips with the thinking process; I'll do this again. Repetition seems to be key to your successes.
2. I give handouts based on lessons; hopefully the pictorial reference will help and again it allows study beforehand, picking up again on Jus' points.
3. My philosophy is to always explain the "why" of any action that I am encouraging a learner to take, regardless of whether there is a learning difficulty or not. It is good to know that this approach seems to have a resonance with you guys. I believe people will only stick with something in the long term if they fully understand why it is beneficial to them. I have never taken the "because I say so" approach as the likelihood of this is they would just ditch anything learnt that way as soon as they pass the test. What I do is not to benefit a test, it should be to benefit the long term safety of the driver.
4. Your stories of avoiding potentially dramatic outcomes through observation, forward planning and lateral thinking show that you possess the ability to drive in situations where others supposedly "more able" might falter. Far from "creating a monster", I actually believe (and I'm not just saying this to curry favour) that those with learning difficulties actually have a better attitude to and understanding of the driving process precisely because they have had to try so hard, be so determined and develop appropriate coping strategies to achieve their licence. Their focus is far less on the "get me through the test asap" and because they invest so much emotionally and financially to get their licence, I suspect they are much more likely to ensure that they don't lose it through speeding, recklessness, lack of thought, etc. etc.
I would be delighted to get more replies with more examples of what has worked for individuals. If any of my points above have missed something, please let me know.
Tr3slunas - my advice would be to go for it in a manual car. Whilst initially this may present a challenge, my experience from 10 years of teaching is that it is harder to "unlearn" something than it is to learn something new. Once you have mastered the automatic, you may find it much harder to then pick up the manual (and your licence will be restricted so you would have to sit another test assuming you are UK based). Find yourself a good instructor who has experience of people with learning difficulties, has a good grade (5 or 6) and that you are happy with (and if not, change).
Sorry, I seem to have written a book here, but I really appreciate your responses.
below long and also some wandering brainstorming- bear with me
so glad that posters 'jus, Kathy, Kestrel and tr3slunas was able to give you a hand! I think it's really cool that you have the forethought and open-ness to come check out the forum here for insights:) Lucky students of yours!
I learned to drive in my 20's as requirement for case management <social services> job. Am in U.S. Was working with people with cognitive disabilities and dual diagnoses/group home clients and part of my job was to go and check out their residence and check for things like - smoke detector working, what are they eating, garbage taken out regularly, how are roommates getting along; also, driving to shopping and so on. I got the job on the condition that I learn to drive. I started the job with only a couple of clients in my immediate area <agency covered entire county, which is a multi-municipality region> and my husband and my dad, as well as another case-worker, assisted with transportation. Many of my clients could take the bus on known routes, independently so that also helped.
So I looked up driving companies and chose one based on what other people I spoke with may have heard of them and how it was to talk to them on phone. Initially had one driving instructor, that didn't work out so well, just some interpersonal stuff. Then had a different one and that was better.
Things that helped me were: lots of patience - just because I see a motion or a behavior doesn't mean I can replicate it. I have issues with spatial orientation and verbal instruction.
use of visuals anyway as opposed to tell me - ok, turn Left, then go down a block and try to turn Right, then go a mile....
I don't know what a mile is; I don't know from feet and if you have a string of directions I may get only part of it.
So, explain by use of landmark, draw a picture, use your hands - anything where I can get a picture in my head. I tend to think in pictures. If I can picture it, I have a much higher chance of getting it. If you tell me "the red book" I get a picture or signs for "red book".
marchag, I also really liked how you described explaining the "why" of it. I know that is especially important to many people - I find it useful too of course but there are certain people like my husband who seems to only be open or able to learn if you explain all the "whys" in vast and complex detail.
Repetition is indeed very helpful and maybe asking students why they might have done something a certain why, or if something was confusing , why was it confusing to them. You could ask them - say you have a skill you want to share with another person with LD - tell ME <you, the driving instructor> how YOU would teach that to this fictitious person.
Write down a list of sequences - depending on the level of LD, or if working with a person with a cognitive disability -
first we check this
then we check that
then we put our foot here
then we look back there
then we do....? what do you think we do? <Ask them>
make segments out of the behaviors - group of behaviors A, B and so on.
break it down, don't lump it up
Thank you so much for your brainstorming - you have given me some real golden nuggets to factor into lessons.
Your advice on visuals led to a discussion with my wife where she suggested making the MSPSL routine pictorial - I now have a rough sketch (I'm not the most artistically adept!) of a pair of mirrors, a car with indicators flashing, an arrow pointing down to an x, a speeding car and a pair of eyes wearing glasses - which now I have done it, can't understand why I hadn't thought of it before! I'm sure there are other areas where I can develop this idea.
Many of the approaches you suggest fit perfectly with the coaching based methodology I have been trying to adopt in the training I give to learners. This means that their views, feelings, opinions and self-assessments are central to the learning process. The idea of asking them how they would teach a person with LD is an absolute gem, I will use this and see it as great way of finding out how the student learns and processes information without them necessarily realising that is what they are telling me. It is also another way for me to be able to tell if my delivery of a subject has been properly understood.
My next steps are to write a summary of the information from all the replies, come up with a few working examples and then ask my student what he feels would work for him, or if he prefers to come up with his own formats based on the examples, and then incorporate these into his lessons.
RottieWoman, would you mind expanding a little on your "make segments out of behaviours" recommendation. I think I understand what you are suggesting - is the principle here to break processes and actions down into smaller logical segments?
I am so pleased that I found this forum, the insight and practical advice that everyone has given me is invaluable. Just hope that I can do it all justice when it comes to delivering the training and providing the help and support which will benefit my student.
yeah you're right about breaking down into smaller segments. :-)
ok, more brainstorm....
Because, actually behaviors are usually not just one thing - they're chains and to teach a behavior, one can incorporate the steps or links of the chain. So, turning on the car is not "just" - "turning on the car" - it's: first driver checks this and that and looks here and then reaches here and the key goes through these positions and then...
so, you could create a color chart where each step is a color and someone who is a visual thinker could link each step to the color they see in their mind. Consult with the student on which colors work for them.
or use of manipulatives - blocks - draw or find a diagram of what the cabin of vehicles typically look like in the country you're teaching in, and take wooden blocks or legoes and place them on the diagram over individual components - steering wheel, etc. Practice moving these blocks through the steps of turning on the car...visual tactile.
write out the steps <list>, put them up where driver can see and
practice, stationary, in a driveway, going down the list, then role play and switch positions - YOU be the student, take the list, and sit in the driver's seat and have the STUDENT pretend to be teacher and have the student help you <you being fake student> go through same process; try to ask questions and do things that the/an actual student would do and give the "instructor" <fake> the chance to model for/explain/assist YOU.
if for auditory example, they enjoy and are knowledgeable about music and instruments, see if associating the sound of a certain instrument with a step in the segment for "start car" is useful.
A little late to this discussion but very good ideas presented so far. I want to add a few other ideas that might help too. You want to break into as simple steps as possible. You want to have some cues that you teach along with the behavior.
For example (this is in the United States)
1. Check the passenger side mirror (don't say left or right, say driver or passenger side, it is less confusing)
2. Check the center mirror
3. Check the driver mirror
4. The turn signals are next to the driver mirror, that is the cue to do the signals.
Be prepared to review over and over, teaching the transition cues along with the other steps. I would use a system of least intrusive prompts which is letting the student try, if after a few seconds he doesn't know what to do, point (don't say anything) then if he still doesn't get it say what to do next.
I remember one of the hardest things while learning to drive was figuring out the turn signals. Finally someone said to turn my signal the same way i was turning the wheel and that was very helpful. For example, I am turning the car to the left (driver side) and i push my turn signal down - if it went into a full circle, it would go the same direction as the wheel.
Also, if parallel parking is not a requirement to pass the driving test, consider waiving it. Parallel parking and reversing presents a unique set of challenges because of the way you have to turn the car the opposite way you want it to go, and I was not able to parallel park until driving became an autonomic task.
Jennifer, thank you for your contribution - it is all helping improve my knowledge and adding tools to the box. In the UK, you have to learn parallel parking - haven't got to that yet with my student. I use the "turn the indicator the same way as the wheel" with all my students when explaining the way the indicators work.
Just thought I would give an update on how things have gone in practice. I ran through a number of suggestions with my student, and the use of a "pictograph" really struck a chord with him. I updated my original rough sketch using clipart, and on viewing it he immediately "got" the routine that it was portraying.
I have still to use some of the other techniques suggested, which I will as the need arises, but my student has voiced seeing a definite improvement in his driving ability over the last couple of lessons - we have moved on to roundabouts and he is dealing pretty well with them. I also wonder how much of an effect just showing some interest, understanding and a willingness to try different things on my part has on how the student views the process? What do you guys think? Clearly, I have to be able to back it all up with some practical input - where all your advice has been invaluable.
One area where the student (fortunately for him) doesn't seem to have difficulties is understanding right and left, which from the general correspondence seems to be less common.
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6136 Joined: 2008-05-25
5/3/11
Hi marchag,
I've been following this Thread, even when I don't post. I don't have difficulty with 'right' and 'left', and I can read maps and navigate, especially using NSEW and the direction of the sun in the sky. I have a lot more trouble navigating, though, when it is a cloudy day and I'm in an 'unknown' area. - jus'
Edited by justfoundout on May 03 2011 04:11 PM
It's been a while since I have been on the forum (and I really should have been back before now) but I thought I would post that my pupil with dyscalculia passed his driving test today, first time and with just 2 minor faults. He did have some difficulties with the Theory Test but we worked through and resolved those issues.
I hope that this gives encouragement to show that though it may take time, perseverence and determination (and thinking outside the box on the part of the instructor!) you can achieve success. It was also a big learning curve for me, both personally and professionally, but the help I received from people on this forum set me on the right path and proved to be invaluable.
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6136 Joined: 2008-05-25
6/26/12
How kind of you to remember us and to come back to give us this update. The good news is that you've learned a lot and helped your student pass the driving test. The bad news is that you may now have a steady stream of dyscalculics referred to you. <smiles> - jus'
Drawing pictures is the best idea I think. I am very visual and if I can "see" what I'm supposed to be doing before I do it, it makes it so much easier to remember when I go to do it.
I don't have left/right issues, but if the driving instructor were to suddenly decide we would take a different route than usual, I'm definitely in trouble. I'm very directionless.
Thankfully, I was taught to drive by an ex who had a lot of patience and we drove around the back roads of the area I lived in for months before he took me out on the real road. As well, we only went through areas I knew, so I guess that was my advantage. I then learned how to drive in an area I was familiar with so that when I went for the driver's test, there wasn't much he could throw at me I couldn't handle because by then I already knew how to drive.
I also learned how to drive using a stick-shift as well. It's amazing I learned to drive at all, because although I don't have left/right issues, that stick-shift darn near drove me out of my mind until I got the hang of it. Actually, it wasn't the stick-shift so much as that pesky clutch I had to learn! At least I passed the test the first time out using a stick-shift, something no other member of my family aside from my Dad had done.
Ladyhawke
Edited by Ladyhawke on July 01 2012 02:55 PM
Algebra? When I learn decimals and fractions, you're welcome to try teaching me, but unless you have the patience of a saint and are very long-lived, good luck with that...
Location: Texas USA Posts: 6136 Joined: 2008-05-25
7/1/12
haha the 'pesky clutch'. I once was offered a small pickup truck to drive across Texas. My friends saw that my car was old and wanted me to drive their new, fully insured, little truck instead. The only problem was that it had a stick-shift. My 6 hour drive (12 hour, round trip) was mostly on highways. But at one point, I had to stop at a red light at the top of a hill. I knew that when I would try to 'go' on green, I would need some extra room to roll backwards, being that I was inexperienced with the clutch. The car behind me pulled up too close to my back bumper, so I had to wave him around me before I could go. By then, the light had turned red. Then, this really dumb girl pulled right up to within 12 inches of my back bumper and started putting on her make up, using her rear view mirror. When the light turned green, she was very happy to continue putting on her make up. Other cars on either side of me went on across the intersection, but me? No. I had to sit there, waving my hands around, trying to get the girl's attention to ask her to go around me. I think that she even 'saw' me but chose to ignore me, continuing to do her make up. Not until the next light change would she go on around my car so that I could safely get it in gear without backing into someone. I always try to keep my distance from any other vehicle, especially when there is an incline. I guess automatic transmissions are so common here that a lot of people don't make allowances for anyone having them. - jus'
The last accident my car was in wasn't my fault. It was my youngest daughter learning how to use a clutch that did my car in. She was over-zealous with it by revving the gas too much before letting the clutch out, even though I kept telling her to lighten up. When she finally let her foot off the clutch, we lurched forward too suddenly for me to stop her and crashed into a fire hydrant.
Ironically, I even had my daughter in driving lessons and she still managed to crash my car. It was really my own fault for thinking she and I could handle it together. After that I told her she would only be driving with her instructor until I saw that driver's license in her hand. Algebra? When I learn decimals and fractions, you're welcome to try teaching me, but unless you have the patience of a saint and are very long-lived, good luck with that...
It was really my own fault for thinking she and I could handle it together. After that I told her she would only be driving with her instructor until I saw that driver's license in her hand.