---

Hello,

I am a senior in college and have had trouble with math all my life. I have had many tests administered to me and Individual Educational Plans who's results show that I am below average in mathematical ability, computational skills, and much much more. I have a F in Calculus, a W in Calculus, a W in Finite Mathematics, a D in Statistics, poor preformance in math classes ever since 5th grade and have all these records, IEP's, Testing results, and even a math placement exam given to to me where I scored a 6/13 (13 to place into college algebra as a senior) out of a total of 50 questions.

Much more information was gathered, even one on one instruction, 15 hours a week with two tutors. Previous University the Assistant Dean personally tutored me along with another tutor for Calculus and I still failed.

With what said above, I had to go through a extensive process to gather all said materials and much more, submit them, and wait for a committee to decide whether or not I may take a math substitute course or not. They decided no. I am currently enolled in College Algebra and have a grade of a F and have two tutors and worked extensively on math to the point it has effected all of my grades the entire semester.

Would anyone be able to tell me if this is cause for discrimination? Seeing how I am unable to pass math no matter how much money, time, and effort I place into it and a "Committee" whose members were not disclosed to me from a public university (Kansas University, Public) my previous was Marquette University (Private)

Would I have a case to file suit? Testing results clearly state above and beyond what trouble I have with math and so do the grades of math courses taken from highschool, middle school, ACT scores, College, and math placement exams, and much more.

Has this been done before?

Please, I would like to finish college but no matter what I do, they wont even adjust the workload for my math and it was a battle to even get the ability to use notes for exams and I still get F's on the exams (a total of 5 now).

Would the Office of Civil Rights take up such a case?

Thank you for your time if you are still reading this, I only want to graduate and math is holding me back. If I fail this math class, I have to repeat it in order to place into the 2nd math. See the problem?

---

Unfortunately, universities are only required to make "reasonable accommodations", they are NOT required to excuse you from or waive your requirement to complete math courses. Many of us have had the same issue. You can try to talk to someone from the Civil Rights Board, but I have a feeling that they will tell you the same thing. Unless the university denies you "reasonable" accommodations such as tutoring, extended testing time, and a calculator, the state's hands are pretty much tied. You may decide to look into a school that does offer alternatives to math classes. For example, any student who takes two science classes does not have to take a math class.

---

I was looking at KU's website. Are you stating that you had LD testing from KU's Psychological Dept? Have you applied to TRiO tutoring service?

---

Thank you for your responses,

No, no psychological testing from KU's department, I'll gladly do it tomorrow. In regards to the other aspect, I have never heard of it

I already have went through plenty of testing but if the Psych Eval from KU would benefit me I will do it.

---

4/29/12
Dear palmert,
I feel your pain. How close are you to graduating? There are a minimum of credit hours that must be taken at just 'one' university in order for that university to bestow a degree. The credits taken at the Uni that gives the degree must amount to (approximately) one year's worth of credits. So, if you are only a few credits from graduating, your options diminish.

I have a dyscalculic friend who was attending WSU. (As I recall, and my memory is awful... ) She had to get a neuropsychologist's report before they would give her the substitutions she needed. But she jumped through their hoops, got what they asked for, and finally got her math credits substituted. She's brilliant. But just like you, math is frozen in time for her. She can't access it. No amount of tutoring has ever helped.

So, at this point, I need to ask,... what's your major? Are you trying to get a degree in liberal arts, in art, or maybe in a language? If this is what you are trying to get, and yet they are giving you this much trouble, then 'yes', do try to contact some government office with authority over the situation.

The following article is two years old, but is still timely. You might consider contacting the author or the editor with your question. I've added Bold to a couple of interesting points. Best wishes. - jus'
http://www.popece...ml?id=2322

Research
Accommodating College Students with Learning Disabilities: ADD, ADHD, and Dyslexia
By Melana Zyla Vickers
March 25, 2010

A complete copy of “Accommodating College Students with Learning Disabilities: ADD, ADHD, and Dyslexia,” is available for download as an Adobe Acrobat file compatible with Adobe Reader.

Universities are providing extra time on tests, quiet exam rooms, in-class note-takers, and other assistance to college students with modest learning disabilities. But these policies are shrouded in secrecy. This paper, “Accommodating College Students with Learning Disabilities: ADD, ADHD, and Dyslexia,” by Melana Zyla Vickers, examines the nature of this assistance and discusses the policy questions it raises.

This research report is based on interviews with on-campus experts in learning disabilities, professors who deal with learning-disabled students, and students themselves. It incorporates statistics showing the rise in accommodations for college students' mild learning disabilities. The paper is not about severe disabilities such as autism, brain injuries, or visual or hearing impairment.

The rise in accommodation by universities has been fueled by changing diagnoses of learning disabilities and by federal laws. Federal requirements are not, however, as demanding as are laws that apply to K-12 students. Those requirements could change, however, depending on the outcome of a court case currently under consideration.

The author, Melana Zyla Vickers, is a widely published journalist who writes editorials on education and public policy for USA Today. She also is a regular contributor to the Weekly Standard and National Review Online and has appeared on the PBS show Newshour, CNN, Fox, and other news channels. Her previous report for the Pope Center was “An Empty Room of One’s Own.”

Hard copies are available from the Pope Center at no charge. To request a copy be mailed to you, send an email to: .


Download PDF file: Accommodating College Students with Learning Disabilities: ADD, ADHD, and Dyslexia (305 k)

---

I have no affiliation with KU, and I'm not an attorney. Check out the following KU link:

http://www.disabi...

Walk your NP report to the TriO office. As per KU's website for TRiO, a NP report stating that you have a maths disorder will qualify you for tutoring. If your report doesn't meet KU's criteria, use KU's testing dept to obtain the NP report, and then go back to TRiO for tutoring.

Notice the requests for accommodations form? It's downloadable. At the beginning of the semester, you should be provided with a course class testing schedule. Apply for accommodations 2 weeks prior to each test or at the beginning of the semester, assuming the school works that far in advance.

You never mentioned what level math class you are taking. If the course is a 100 or 200 level class, you may be able to take the class at a local cc and transfer that course back in, provided KU accepts transfers from your local cc. Again, take your NP report to the local cc's disability services office. Get the tutoring and accommodations there, take the class, and transfer the credits back.

I realize that you stated you were tutored unsuccessfully at your prior college. You shouldn't automatically discount the help that KU is willing to provide.

Sousa has written a book called How the Brain Learns Mathematics. I found this book very insightful when dealing with my son.

Please tell us how this all works out for you.

---

4/30/12
Many dyscalculics can not learn math, even with tutoring and much effort. The accommodation of taking a course such as Logic to replace the math credits is (pardon the pun) the logical solution. - jus'

---

I know. I was left with the impression from the OP that KU would not substitute. The OP suggested litigating. How can you file a lawsuit against an organization if you haven't exhausted all of their means of help? There don't appear to be many good options here.

Outside of transfering credits to a more obliging 4 year university and retaking the junior and senior level classes, I don't see any alternatives. Perhaps someone will think of something.

Your pun was very funny BTW...

Since DS has been diagnosed with his LDs, I've become a huge fan of flexible Liberal Arts colleges like New College.

---

4/30/12
heathermomster,
I'd rather you wouldn't use my posts as quotes within your posts, please. - jus'

---

4/30/12
Palmert,
Were you tested by a licensed psychologist? Did you receive a copy of the test results? Was it the Wechsler or perhaps the Woodcock Johnson test? Both are good tests. You would definitely need bona fide documentation of a Learning Disability to go further in your request for a math substitution. Did you get the Mathematics Disorder diagnosis as a result of the testing? Did the psychologist write a Report, including a page of his/her recommendations on accommodations that you need? My psychologist specified that he recommended I be given a math substitution. - jus'

---

Jus', would you believe I thought of that later, after I replied? I'll fix it...

---

palmert, I found this: http://www.direct...dg_4001068

<disability rights/legislation in UK> '

and I also found this: http://www.direct...g_10014898

---

5/12/12
But he's in Kansas, RW. :/ - jus'

---

oops! For some reason I had it in my head this person was in the UK -sooooo, maybe if anyone could use this in UK, that could still be a possibility :-)

but so far as Kansas -palmert, sorry about that!
palmert, my apologies, I hope you you find your way and achieve your goals. An official diagnosis from an authority which states conclusively based on testing, that you have math LD or dyscalculia is needed. Sadly, what would be the "ideal" accommodations" are not the same as what is "reasonable". Legally as 'kat states, laws are only required to satisfy what is "reasonable" for someone who is has an actual diagnosis of "disability" or is perceived <by certain specific parameters> to have a disability.

---

Yes, it's a nice link for the UK. ;) - jus'

---

Just to reiterate my previous post and to expand on Kat's post, the university can NOT legally do anything until there is a legal diagnosis on record with the school. Please, if you don't already have an official, legal diagnosis, get one as soon as you are able. Then, and only then, are you entitled to "reasonable accommodations" that may help you. If you need help locating a place to get tested, we can assist you with that.

---

Thank you all, I appreciate all the responses.

The disability is ADHD and Dyscalculia yet the University has no one in the entire Special Education Department has no one working directly with students who is directly specialized in this area. Nothing, communication majors, etc.

ADHD is documented and so is Dyscalculia. It is both on file with the school and when I appealed to have the courses substituted, it went to a committee and it was denied on the basis that no recommendation from the department that told me about the course substitution policy, had not even written me a letter recommending it, simply a letter interpreting the results of my IEP and other testing, basically showing that I am inept at any math at all.

On the committee was no member representing me from the Office of Disability, no liason, and no one on the committee was qualified with interpreting the results of my testing. They wont even disclose the exact members on the committee, rather they are stonewalling me.

The Office of Disability even provided me with a 2nd tutor, which I pay for, and now they are evening not speaking to me, just before finals. A letter was written that even further explained my inability to do math from them. Still nothing. And now there is no appeal process and the department said its done with.

Its truly unbelievable and unacceptable. I have letters from the Assistent dean of Mathematics at another more highly recognized University that states the trouble and difficulty I had even with meeting her multiple times a week and with a tutor she had set up for me as well.

Amazing story, there's so much more to it.

Including the two people who after I wrote a email asking them for help (After going to their office 5+ times explaining my difficulty) I sent them a list of suggestions other students got for my disabilities and asked them to see if any were a possibility for me in math and to speak to me first, not the Professor in charge of mathematics.

The next day, I go in to the Professor in charge of the entire math dept for algebra for help, i sit outside the door, inside are the two individuals supposed to be advocating and helping me, making fun of me and my suggestions to the professor and laughing about it. I listened outside the door for over ten minutes until I had enough and told the secretary that maybe she should tell them I was sitting outside the door.

So much more to this and communications. Its unbelievable. Now I am told there is no appeal process for the course substitutions and the Office of Disability Services says its out of there hands. Even with two tutors, going to class, I still average 40's on the exams, with notes now too.

---

5/4/12
Palmert,
That is truly a shocking story. It's difficult to just write another post about possibilities and tactics to try out after reading this account. I have a paralegal degree that's never been used. But reading a story like yours makes me want to be a lawyer. In actuality, I would probably make a terrible mess of your case, but I do want you to know how it makes me feel to hear about this.

I identify too, because I went to a job interview a couple of years ago where the 'head hunter' was extremely rude to me. She would ask me a question and then interrupt me before I could answer it, practically rolling her eyes up to the ceiling. Then, when the interview was over, I left by pushing open the door and going out into the marble-like elevator area. As soon as the glass door had closed behind me, the head hunter and the one other woman who had been in that room both let out a huge, loud laugh,... long and loud. I'm sure that this was intentional. It was infuriating. And later, the actual head hunter who had first contacted me on the phone spoke to me (again on the phone) in an arrogant and hostile manner, telling me how 'professional' the woman who had interviewed me is. She said this without me having told her how awful the woman had been, so I'm sure that the rude lady made sure to paint the situation as though she were the one who had been disrespected. This was before I knew about learning disabilities, and it was a 'job' situation, not a 'educational' setting. Your ordeal has been much worse. But I still wanted to tell you my story.

Do you have an ombudsman (ombudsperson) at your college? That's one possibility. Also, here in Texas where I'm located, each community college has one person who is responsible to see that the college is in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). In the case of a nearby cc, that person is also the Vice President of Student affairs. When I had trouble with a rude man in the Financial Aid department regarding my disability documentation, I called the College Coordinating Board for Texas. There, a staff person gave me the name and email of that Vice President of Student Services so that I could email her and report the infraction. He also gave me his own email. When I emailed the Vice President of Student Affairs, I included a 'carbon copy' to that staff person. I also mentioned him by name in my email to the Vice President of Student Services, telling her that I'd discussed the problem with him. Carbon Copies of emails to the superiors of those who are wronging you is one way to handle it. Also, you can just keep moving up the food chain.

Have you made an appointment to talk with the President, or Vice President, of the college? I had two or three sessions with the President of my community college when trying to get the paralegal program to accept my math substitution. He was helpful. Without his help, I don't think that I would have my paralegal degree.

If the President of the college refuses to meet with you, then the next step could be to contact his boss,... whoever the person is to whom he must respond. Is would be very gratifying to finally reach a person with authority who will listen. Also gratifying would be seeing them all stop laughing.

In my case regarding the Vice President of Student Services, I did not request a reply. I did however receive numerous official emails telling me that my transcript had been accepted and processed and emails sending me links so that I could access my Financial Aid information, etc.,... all the things that I'd been denied before writing to her. By then through, I'd found funding at a different college. - jus'

---

You may also choose to contact the President of the institution you attend. This is a big step, but sometimes, the fact that you would bother to get in touch may make a profound impact, especially if transferring is out of the question, as it does sound like it is. By going to someone was high up as you can BEFORE contacting someone from the civil rights commission in your state, you show that you are serious about taking steps to self-advocate. Only after you have contacted every person at the institution you can think of would I suggest talking to someone from the office of civil rights, simply because this could be seen as not taking steps for yourself. Also, please DOCUMENT EVERY attempt to contact all the individuals you have contacted regarding this. Save files e-mailed, letters written, log phone conversations (who, date, time, length of call, instructions to follow-up, if any), log visits made to office (same as phone calls). Yes, it's a lot of work, but it helps build a solid case in your favor. Good luck!

---

I said 'president', too, Squeaky. I did. I really did. It's just squeezed in there with so much else. ;)

And, yes, like Squeaky says, keep a piece of paper by the phone and document every person's name that you talk to. Even if they say, 'the secretary', gently repeat that you'd like to have her name please. And write it down. Also, if a person says that she will 'pass you to .<blank> the head of <blank>', write this down. And when that person answer, double check to see if you really got passed to where you were supposedly being passed. If I could count the times that I'd retold my whole story, only to find out that it wasn't even the right department that I'd been passed to. - jus'

---

Thank you all for your replies.

To add more detail to this story. The petition was "Process for substitution of Math Requirements due to learning disability."

The subcommittee meeting was on the 24th. Since it is a public university, information is disclosed online, my name or case did not appear. More interesting is this, I have yet to get the exact members on the committee after even contacting the Ombud, she too has been ignored and has proved incapable/ineffective at gathering any information at all.

I got a list of ALL the potential members on the committee and there is not ONE who has learning disability credentials or is a learning disability liaison. Don't you think this would be extremely important considering it was petitioned on the account of my learning disability, both ADHD and Dyscalculia?

After spending almost $1000 this semester on tutoring alone (Two tutors, one a PHD) the office that told me about a substitution "Office of Disability Services" did not write me a letter recommending a substitution when in fact they wrote only ONE letter and it was a interpretation of my math capabilities from the results, which when read, is easy to see that I am practically incapable of mathematics. Further documentation was included from test results from psychologists etc. which shows how bad my math skills are. So I was rejected for "Lack of a good faith effort" and that no recemendation was made from the office that told me about the substitution.

I am now told it is "now all water under the bridge" by the head of the learning disability department and just to accept the fact that I will have to keep trying math in college, now going to be seven times after failing and withdrawing all those times. I have letters, documentation, correspondence, emails, that all prove that I have been advocating for myself all year with no help from the disability office, in fact, they seem to be working against me.

They have easily violated ADA among other laws. Omubud can not even get answers. So the general consensus is to write further up to the president of the college?

The amount of paperwork, documentation, among much else, I feel I have a very good case against the school. I have tried every route only to be denied by the College of Liberal Arts. Its not something I am proud of and this has taken up not just this semester but last semester as well and even before that.

This is ridiculous. The actual Office of Disability services has even begun to ignore me and not correctly convey my disability to the math department.

Rather then explain myself more to some one else in the college, I think it may be better to file this with the office of civil rights. Not just to help myself but how many other students are out there going through the same thing? People with situations far less as extreme and detailed as mine have won against prominent schools.

If a individual is incapable of doing a subject not relevant to his/her major and substitutions are allowed (I am not asking for a waiver) should they not be allowed to substitute courses because of a proven disability?

It is extremely bothersome that my "appeal" went before a committee with no member representing my disabilities to them and not one member on the commitee having a special educational background. Even if a IEP does not stand in college, it converts over to a 504 plan. What if I was blind and could not pass math? Also, according to the school, there is no APPEAL to the decision.

If there was ever a case to bring dyscalculia and protect others from what I have went through, I truly believe it is mine. There is so much detail to it that it is truly an amazing story.

I was placed in math 002 (intro to algebra) my first semester and struggled and was failing so I had to withdraw. Second semester I placed into math 101 (College Algebra) and am currently failing with the the help of two tutors and average exam grade of 40%.

Any one have any other idea's or just gather all said materials, and testing results etc. and just meet with a attorney from the Office of Civil Rights?

---

In response to accommodation's being utilized at KU, they include tutoring (which I must pay), extra time on exams, and a formula sheet and some notes. Even with these in place, and two tutors, I still average 40% on exams.

I am not sure if you thought I was not utilizing any of these accommodations. Even with notes on exams, I still average 40% them. There are other reasonable accommodations students may receive, reduced course load for example or extended time on assignments seeing how it takes me over double the amount of time it takes others to do the same material and that's WITH a tutor.

Students should not be told they must take a math course some where else in the hope they pass it there first then transfer it over to the University.

In addition, taking the course on a pass/fail basis should have been more then reasonable to be enacted, it was not. Which further aggravates the situation from a 3.8 GPA crashing down into the 2's.

55+ HW questions a week of long college algebra problems I do not understand and am incapable of understanding is quite difficult.

---

-Yes I was tested, extensively. I have these result as well as a EKG testing done to prove ADHD as well.

---

-Again, there is a diagnosis on file, with plenty of documentation to go with it on file with the school.

Here is a quote "First based on is WAIS-III (IQ testing) working memory index score is a a standard score of 69. 100 is the mean so his working memory is two standard deviations below the norm. This can impact his mathematical ability as it is used in the ability to do multiple functions at a time. It is also used when trying to generalize information from abstract reasoning and/or recalling information from long term memory. A student may have difficulty recalling multiplication tables and expend working memory on that and have little left over to recall how to then factor."

Also indicated is "difficulty with visual memory. This can impact a students ability in recognizing and using mathematical symbols. Functionally, this can impact the ability to recognize and remember, in sequence, complex mathematical symbols and numbers."

"Achievement testing also demonstrated variability. On the Wechsler Individual Achievement Test, his Math Reasoning subtest was at the 14th percentile."


and lastly "Woodcock-Johnson Achievement test #3, calculation score was in the below average range of 84." "He would not have reached algebra questions based on his score. His clinician also noted that his performance was variable on tasks using long division "in that he was able to solve simple problems, but was unable to constantly show an understanding of more complex problems requiring long division."

These are exerts from THE ONLY letter submitted to the committee from the Office of Disability.

---

5/9/12
Yes, Palmert,... a civil rights lawyer does sound like one good possible choice.

I got some information last week that supports your idea of going to the civil rights people. The Federal government has cut Pell Grant back from 12 full semesters (for a 4-year degree) to only 9 full semesters. This means that for all dyscalculic people, those extra attempts at math classes add up to extra semesters, causing us to run out of funding before we can get our degree. If you have not been receiving Pell Grant, then this wouldn't be one of your arguing points, but if you have been receiving Pell Grant, then your college has been making you fritter away the goverment funding on the basis that you haven't made a 'good faith effort'. Where is their 'good faith effort' to understand your LD and the cost of their decisions to you, the cost of their decision to the federal government, and the cost to society in general?,... since no one will be benefiting from your future contribution to society if they don't let you graduate. - jus'

---

5/9/12
Hi again, palmert. I want to be sure that I haven't over-looked anything obvious. You are trying to get a Bachelor's degree in Liberal Arts, aren't you? I mean, you are just trying to get the minimum of math credits covered in order to have a Bachelor's degree, right? Here in Texas, the State only requires three math credits (College Algebra) for a Bachelor's degree. Some Universities (like mine) require six math credits (College Algebra plus 'something else', like Statistics) in order to bestow a Bachelor's degree. My University is an 'engineering' college, so the administration requires more math of its students than a non-engineering college,... though it escapes my comprehension why, if a student isn't studying engineering, this should impact that student's curriculum. But, another State of Texas University, UTSA (University of Texas at San Antonio), only requires three college credits for a Bachelor's degree. So, some colleges require more math credits than others. What math course(s) are you required to pass to get your Bachelor's degree? (I know that you can't pass them. I'm just wanting to look up those classes on the KU website.) And what 'degree' are you trying to get? (I'm not intending to 'pry', so if any of my questions become annoying rather than possibly helpful, please don't answer them.) I've thought about your problem and the treatment you are receiving several times today. - jus'

---

palmert,
I want to be clear about what I'm about to say and why I'm saying it. I have a degree in math and have a diverse education bridging the mathematical world with science with the liberal arts world. I'm blessed. I've had difficulty in my past. I'm currently working on an education degree at the graduate level. Though I do believe your disability is very probable and proven I do know that many people that teach math are the least qualified people to teach the subjects. They do not know how to connect with people far too often. They assume so much that they should not assume. You, my friend, are not alone.

However, you've already spent an enormous amount of time and money in your degree. It was reasonable to believe that somehow someone would accomodate you through the process and help scaffold you into at least a barely functional mathematician at the lower level. Personally, I do not believe that algebra should be required. An alternative should be provided, like logic or some other comparable course. It's just wrong they don't accommodate you. My argument for this is there are many people that can barely write that graduate and can not spell correctly without the assistance of a dictionary [aka ME]. It's unfair. This is why I'm advising you to see free or low income legal assistance to represent you through the process. Do NOT give up. Go seek counsel and find someone that will help you. Many lawyers I've known in my history as well as other majors are horrible at math and the university has little to stand on. You need to change your tactic to attack mode to scare the crap out of them. Trust me, it works. I'm an advocate for persons with disabilities and have recently applied for the same status as well. I'm applying for veterans disability as well now after avoiding it for 25 years. I expect a fight, but believe I'll eventually win because its all documented if they did not conveniently purge all documentation. Even if they do, I have names and social security numbers of the driver and other persons that knew about what happened if not there first hand. Never give up fighting those bureaucratic idiots. I've been one and can tell you they mostly don't know what their doing and like to hide behind the system, even when they do not have the right to. You can google most college employees salaries, which is evidence that they are a public government funded institution, making Open Records request their personal legal nightmare come true. Use the law in your favor and go after reputations and careers if they go over an beyond the civilized approach. They deserve what they get when they respond with such hatred. I'd suit for a full refund of your money and time if they do not comply.

---

8/16/12
Hi Jack,
Thanks for the helpful advice you've offered palmert.

Also, forgive me for taking advantage of your knowledge. How's it going with the Masters in Education? That's one of my options after I get my BA in Spanish this coming December. Do I want a Masters in Education? - jus'